Topics: ACF Report Card, Hazelwood Power Station, Labor’s Plan for Citizens Assemblies, Climate Policies
FRAN KELLY
The Australian Conservation Foundation has graded the environmental policies of the major parties. So far in this campaign Labor hasn’t done well, it scored 33%. The Coalition has done much worse, scoring just 15% for your environment policies. That’s an abysmal fail isn’t it?
GREG HUNT
Well it’s very interesting and a little surprising that they have completely excluded all of the green carbon work which the Coalition has done. By contrast I understand the Climate Institute has a very different set of results. So, I’ll let those groups do that. But our goal is very clear. We have a target and a Direct Action Plan which will achieve our emissions reduction target. The Government at the moment I think has a climate lotto policy for a Citizens Assembly that will achieve nothing and we don’t even know what the consensus is. We have a very real policy.
FRAN KELLY
The ACF marks both sides down for not having a price on carbon, so does the Climate Institute I think. Tony Abbott ruled that out, a price on carbon, he ruled that out on day one of this campaign. Malcolm Turnbull though still thinks to believe it’s the way to go forward with the economy. Here’s what he had to say on Q and A last night.
MALCOLM TURNBULL EXTRACT FROM Q AND A LAST NIGHT
You won’t find an economist anywhere that will tell you anything other than that the most efficient and effective way to cut emissions is by putting a price on carbon.
FRAN KELLY
That was Malcolm Turnbull on Q and A last night. Greg Hunt, what do you think? Do you agree with him that a price on carbon is the most efficient and effective way?
GREG HUNT
Actually for many years now I have designed and advocated a pricing mechanism which is not about pricing production, but providing an incentive for abatement. That’s the heart of the direct action model. It was a speech I gave almost four years ago, November the 30th, 2006 at the Centre for Independent Studies. And the structure of this, which is exactly what Premier Brumby adopted yesterday but without any money to pay for it, is that we find the lowest cost abatement. So it’s a market-based approach to providing incentives for emissions reductions for clean air. It’s not about a production tax which is an electricity tax which is the Government’s model, the Gillard model, the Rudd model. But they just don’t quite have the gumption to actually put it on the table.
FRAN KELLY
Alright well let’s talk about that market based approach. You mentioned Victorian Premier John Brumby. He announced the plan yesterday to shut down one of the nation’s dirtiest and oldest coal fired power stations in Hazelwood in Victoria if the Commonwealth can share the compensation. If you win government, will you help Victoria with the cost of closing down Hazelwood, the brown coal power station?
GREG HUNT
Is Hazelwood exactly the sort of thing that we could do? Yes it is, subject to maintaining jobs and maintaining electricity prices. We would not close down. We would look at converting from coal to gas. I think the Premier’s got some questions to answer today whether or not he’s going to create major unemployment in the LaTrobe Valley and in electricity price changes.
FRAN KELLY
So how much would that cost, converting from coal to gas?
GREG HUNT
The best likelihood on the published figures is somewhere between $20-25 a tonne, and so whether you are looking at a million tonnes or ten million tonnes, you would use that sort of basis, that’s what’s been discussed in public papers; papers that have been made available to the government. And so we have a fund which is $2.5 billion as part of the $3.2 billion Direct Action package over four years or $10.5 billion over 9 years, so it was specifically designed to find the lowest cost abatement and things such as Hazelwood or other power stations could be converted from coal to gas…
FRAN KELLY
And tell me the sums then, can you do those sums for me? I’m sure you’ve done them, what kind of hole would that put in your $2.5 billion fund?
GREG HUNT
Well it’s actually, over 9 years, it’s a $10.5 billion fund.
FRAN KELLY
No but how much of a hole would the conversion from a dirty brown coal station, from coal to gas cost?
GREG HUNT
It could cost anything from $500 million for a small, for what Premier Brumby was proposing up to $2 billion for a larger figure. But our approach is very simple and this is I think the absolute distinction between the Government and us. At the moment the Government has no concrete plan although it has a desire to use electricity pricing, it has the farcical Citizens Assembly. We’ve got an abatement fund which goes out and finds the lowest cost abatement. So if Hazelwood is the lowest cost industrial abatement we could well assist with that transition subject to electricity prices, that’s an absolute commitment from us, and subject to maintaining jobs in the Valley.
FRAN KELLY
Ok, but if you can (inaudible) you’re talking about a market based approach. Actually the market is all being paid for, in your scheme, in your Direct Action Plan, by the tax payers isn’t it? So say the $2 billion, if it’s that much, for converting Hazelwood, that’s a big chunk out of your fund. Then you’re also going to pay for the tree planting and the money for farmers to reduce their emissions using carbon soil, for instance what chunk of your $2.5 billion over 4 years would your carbon soil emissions reductions cost?
GREG HUNT
Well we’re looking at up to 60% of our total emissions reductions coming through the green carbon space and the beauty of that, as was published in The Australian today, if you think of the government’s $400 million for ‘Cash for Clunkers’, they would get 1 million tonnes, we would get 40 million tonnes of abatement for the same funding from $400 million. So that’s a very important distinction. The industrial emissions will be at a higher rate, that’s at the $20-25 a tonne, so for $400 million, the cash for clunkers money, the Government gets 1 million tonnes, we would get 20 million tonnes of emissions reductions through helping to convert and clean up rather than close down Hazelwood, convert it and keep jobs in the Valley. And on the soil carbon space, you’d get 40 million tonnes.
FRAN KELLY
Ok, but it’s still coming out of your fund. This is going to mean there is much less there for renewables, I mean you’re chewing out your fund pretty quickly here. This is all tax payers’ money.
GREG HUNT
The fund is designed to; there are two different approaches here; firstly you’ve got to find the lowest cost abatement which is about reducing emissions. Secondly, in terms of renewables, we’ve got two major initiatives there. The first of the initiatives is the Renewable Energy Target; there’s bipartisan support for the 20% and we have a band for the emerging technologies, based on solar and geothermal and tidal and wave. And we also have the Million Roofs Solar Policy, which is over and above the $2.5 billion that we have in place for the Emissions Reduction or Clean Air Fund.
FRAN KELLY
Ok, I’ve got a feeling we may need to revisit this, the details of the policy too, once we get both policies finally out. But you have been very critical of the Citizens Assembly idea that Julia Gillard put out, and you and Tony Abbot say, you know, there already is a Citizens Assembly of 150 Australians called the Parliament. Isn’t the fact that the 150 members of Parliament in the Lower House actually voted on the ETS three times and voted for it; that the Citizen’s Assembly, in your words, voted for it and yet the Coalition still blocked it?
GREG HUNT
I think there’s a very clear position here, that is that we do have a Parliament and governments are elected to lead. Our view is very clear: we would not be putting an electricity price on the Australian consumers. Julia Gillard wants to do that but won’t commit, but we would put in place the Emissions Reduction Fund which Premier Brumby adopted.
FRAN KELLY
Which still comes out of tax payers’ money, so presumably tax payers are still paying for it?
GREG HUNT
We have absolutely set out that this would be a Government fund where we provide incentives, no question, nothing other than complete commitment on that front. The alternative here is this Citizens Assembly, its 150 people as I understand it, randomly selected from the phone book, so you have effectively national policy by lottery. Our message to the Prime Minister is accept that it is a bad idea, drop the talk-fest, drop the Citizens Assembly, just say what you actually believe in. We believe in an Emissions Reduction Fund, and I’ve got to say this to Julia Gillard, that I think Kevin Rudd had a much better understanding of climate policy than she does.
FRAN KELLY
Greg Hunt, thank you very much for joining us.
GREG HUNT
It’s a pleasure.