E&OE….
Topics: Clean Energy Finance Corporation, Renewable Energy Target, Shenhua Watermark mine approval
JUSTIN SMITH:
Greg Hunt the Federal Environment Minister is good enough to give me some time. Hi Minister.
GREG HUNT:
G'day, how are you going?
JUSTIN SMITH:
Good thanks, are you and Barnaby speaking yet? Are you friends?
GREG HUNT:
No no, we get on incredibly well, he's an unbelievably decent guy and we actually talk a lot and we just have a really good relationship.
JUSTIN SMITH:
I wanted to ask you about the Shenhua Watermark coal mine in a moment.
GREG HUNT:
Sure.
JUSTIN SMITH:
But first of all there has been a fair old question mark over renewable energy, solar power, wind farms, and exactly what the Government position is on it. Is there anything that you can clear up for us?
GREG HUNT:
Yes, absolutely. The first thing is there is no change to the rebates available for household solar. This has been one of the myths that's been perpetrated. If you go out to buy solar panels for your roof you will get a rebate. At the moment the average rebate is about 30 per cent of the up-front cost of solar, this comes through the Renewable Energy Target.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah.
GREG HUNT:
That's completely unchanged. And that's the first thing. Under the Renewable Energy Target a little more than 1.4 million solar panel systems have been installed and 900,000 solar hot water systems. So over two million people have benefited and that continues unchanged. The only thing that we've done …
JUSTIN SMITH:
Well do you urge people go out- do you support solar power? Do you urge people to go out and hook their household up to solar power?
GREG HUNT:
Look it's a decision for each of them, but I do encourage people where they feel that they can do it for their home, they can do it within their finances to take up renewable energy, to take up solar energy. It doesn't fit every home.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah.
GREG HUNT:
It doesn't work in every circumstance, but absolutely. Now what has happened here is there's a separate program called the Clean Energy Finance Corporation which we always said we would abolish if we could in government. We have tried twice through the Senate to do that. That hasn't been successful.
We certainly abolished the carbon tax and took the pressure off electricity prices, we came to a very good landing of 23.5 per cent on the Renewable Energy Target. With the Clean Energy Finance Corporation what we agreed with the Senate was that it should focus on things such as large-scale solar, the big solar troughs and solar dishes that people see and perceive, I think rightly, as part of the great future of the world.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah okay …
GREG HUNT:
Rather than on existing mature technologies.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Okay, so what has happened here is you- the brief has changed for the Clean Energy Finance Corporation …
GREG HUNT:
Correct.
JUSTIN SMITH:
… not to pay as much attention to, what, rooftop small-scale solar? So how does that work?
GREG HUNT:
Well the …
JUSTIN SMITH:
So you're saying the rebate hasn't changed, for the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, how is that- I mean how does that change for us?
GREG HUNT:
The Clean Energy Finance Corporation has not been doing much at all in this space. Of the 2.3 million houses that have received rebates under the Renewable Energy Target, they're all under the Renewable Energy Target. There may be a very small number, a fraction which come from the Clean Energy Finance Corporation. But in reality, 2.3 million Australians have benefited from the Renewable Energy Target, although it's not cost-free.
They will continue to be able to benefit and anybody who wants to participate can do that. So, that's just to deal with some of the myths that I think the Labor Party is putting about. The thing that we do want …
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah but the directive – look I don't care about the Labor Party – the directive has changed though to the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, has it not?
GREG HUNT:
Correct, we want them to focus on emerging technologies, energy efficiency and large-scale solar. Those are the things that we said to the Senate.
JUSTIN SMITH:
So you are moving away from smaller – the rebate I know still exists, that has not changed, but you are moving away from solar for the household. It is something that you…
GREG HUNT:
No, no, not at all. No, the means of financing that remains the same. The Clean Energy Finance Corporation has essentially had very little to do with this space. What we are saying is that we want it to be focusing – as it was intended – on the emerging technologies such as large-scale solar. Household solar is flourishing, what we're seeing, as I say, is over 2.3 million systems installed…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah, but it's not a …
GREG HUNT:
…under the Renewable Energy Target and they'll continue.
JUSTIN SMITH:
But Minister, it's not a perfect technology yet though is it? There's possibly still more that can be done with small-scale solar. Isn't the Clean Energy Finance Corporation supposed to be involved in that?
GREG HUNT:
Look, essentially…
JUSTIN SMITH:
It's not a perfect technology, is it? I mean, it can be better.
GREG HUNT:
Well every technology can continue to evolve. But this, on virtually every definition, when it's in 2.3 million houses, is a mature technology. The real example here that we're concerned about is the Clean Energy Finance Corporation investing in things such as wind farms that have already been built. Why would you use borrowed taxpayers' money – essentially money that we have to borrow from overseas…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah, but it's all…
GREG HUNT:
…to invest in wind farms that have already been built. So it's sort of like buying shares in things that are already built. Such as the Macarthur Wind Farm in Victoria.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah, but everything- we're always- I mean, we're always talking about taxpayers' money. Everything that gets done is in the name of taxpayers' money. That's not a good enough argument to throw out, I would think.
GREG HUNT:
Well, when this was founded, Greg Combet said that technologies with a track record have generally had fewer problems accessing finance, as the financial market has experience with their risk return. As such, the Corporation is not expected to fund these projects. That's what he said when he introduced the legislation.
And what we're doing is returning the Corporation to focusing on exactly its intended purpose of emerging technologies. And so you have the Renewable Energy Target for large-scale wind and for household solar, that will continue, and in fact there's more certainty than ever before there. So anybody who is seeking to install solar, just go out, do it and the Renewable Energy Target will provide you a rebate of, on average…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah.
GREG HUNT:
…about 30 per cent.
JUSTIN SMITH:
But I get it, look I guess what is in question here is what is the Government's investment in things like wind farms, investment in solar power, investment in renewable energy. What's your role in this? What do you want in the future? Do you want to see…
GREG HUNT:
Well what we want to see…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Do you want to see us to continue with this practice?
GREG HUNT:
What we want to do is see Australia grow to 23.5 per cent renewable energy by 2020. So this debate started around a target of 20 per cent, we've lifted that objective, that goal, to 23.5 per cent and we'll achieve it. The problem we had was the worst of all possible worlds of a figure which was unachievable and which wasn't going to be built, and which would have seen a de facto carbon tax the equivalent of $93 a tonne come in with massive hikes in electricity prices…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah.
GREG HUNT:
…so if we hadn't achieved the target there was a huge a de facto carbon tax that would've been imposed. That's why we resolved that. We've already seen investment announced. We're seeing people go and put solar on their roofs, and guess what? They can continue to do that. What we don't want to do is see this $10 billion fund investing in wind farms that have already been built…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah.
GREG HUNT:
… and I think people would be surprised that that was happening.
JUSTIN SMITH:
But wouldn't you with the- look, and I'm not overly sold on the wind farms. But if they're working, don't you want to use that $10 billion to make more of them or to develop and help develop more of them across the country and stick more in? I mean there seems to be an aesthetic argument that goes on here because the Prime Minister doesn't seem to like them.
GREG HUNT:
No, I think the point is that the Labor Party told us that the Renewable Energy Target would be all you would need. Then they said no, no we're only kidding, you need a carbon tax as well. Then they said you need a $10 billion Clean Energy Finance Corporation.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Okay, what about you? What about you?
GREG HUNT:
For us it's very simple.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yes.
GREG HUNT:
We've now got the Renewable Energy Target to a really stable position. That’s at 23.5 per cent. That does two things. It means there's a basis for rolling out, as we've already seen, renewable energy investments, such as a $450 million project near Ararat in my home State of Victoria, and a continued long-term support for household solar.
That support is locked in legislation. Any Australian who goes to put solar panels on their roof is eligible for the Renewable Energy Credits. They remain, and they (inaudible) they get 30 per cent off roughly on about …
JUSTIN SMITH:
But I say this again Minister – isn't it about the future though? I know the rebates are still there, but is it not about the future and continuing to develop these?
GREG HUNT:
Well I think the future is about the new technologies, and this cleaner- the Renewable Energy Target …
JUSTIN SMITH:
And where do they come from?
GREG HUNT:
…is meant to support renewable energy generally. The Clean Energy Finance Corporation was created to support emerging technologies and it wasn't focusing on that. That wasn't its primary focus. When you're supporting existing wind farms, investing taxpayer's money and build wind farms. Whereas we think it should be the great vision of large scale solar, of tidal, of wave, of geothermal. These are exciting new things and if you are going to have it, it ought to do the job for which it was created.
JUSTIN SMITH:
So with wind farms, let's forget the ones that we've got right now. You say that we've already paid for them and we shouldn't be pouring more in it. Would you like to see more?
GREG HUNT:
Well by definition, the nature of the Renewable Energy Target is that there will be more wind, more solar, I hope more geothermal – significantly more because we have very little – and there will be a range of different technology.
JUSTIN SMITH:
But you want more. You want more. Yeah.
GREG HUNT:
Well what I want is more renewable energy, and it's not for me to pick which ones are the winners. That's my whole point.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Well okay, if that's the case why did the Prime Minister weigh into the wind farm debate? Why did he weigh into it? If it is not up to the Government to pick these things, why did you become a part of it?
GREG HUNT:
Well to be fair, he was expressing a personal view. But what he did do throughout was to support a…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Come on Greg. Greg, Environment Ministers and Prime Ministers don't have personal views when they speak about policy.
GREG HUNT:
Of course he's entitled to that. And most significantly, what he did do always was support us achieving a balanced outcome of not 20 per cent or 21 or 22 per cent, but 23.5 per cent renewable energy under the Target. So that's a tremendous outcome and you know what, we'll get there, we'll achieve our Renewable Energy Target in my belief.
We're going to beat our emissions reduction target not for the first but for the second time as we head towards 2020. And yeah, by world standards we're doing very good things. A lot of people talk – we're actually delivering and the other thing we said we'd do, we said we would get rid of the carbon tax and lower electricity prices. Well, we have. The other mob wants to bring it back and raise electricity prices and we don't want that.
JUSTIN SMITH:
The Shenhua Watermark coal mine – what was your involvement in the process?
GREG HUNT:
So I had responsibility for what’s stage 15 of a 17 stage process. And that's a statutory process which means it's very, very defined. So it was a New South Wales Labor project…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah.
GREG HUNT:
…a land planning project. We do an assessment against the science and there were six scientific studies. There was legal advice and departmental advice, all of which said this is on the ridges, it's prohibited from – on agricultural land…
JUSTIN SMITH:
On the ridges of what?
GREG HUNT:
…the ridges in the area near Breeza. And so it's prohibited from prime agricultural land…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah.
GREG HUNT:
…it used less than 1 in 1000 parts of the available water…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Okay.
GREG HUNT:
…and therefore each one of those six studies said that there was no chance at all of this coming remotely near any of the Commonwealth standards and therefore there was no basis for taking any decision other than to accept that it was within the Commonwealth standards. And now it goes back to New South Wales.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Okay. So you went there to look at this as part of this process?
GREG HUNT:
I did indeed.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah.
GREG HUNT:
And I actually went with Barnaby Joyce. I met with a series of community members and I know there are people on both sides of this debate. And it was one of those ones where you know no matter what you do, there will be people of good faith, of good heart, with different views. My part is confined to assessing the scientific report…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Well, wait, there was feeling that you got shut out of this decision? That you didn't have a great deal to do with it – do you reject that?
GREG HUNT:
I think you might be confusing that with another topic. So the way it works is that, as I say, it's a State planning process, a State allocation process, everything else…
JUSTIN SMITH:
No, no but you were fully involved with this process, all the way along, with Shenhua? Apart from, obviously, as far as the Federal Government is concerned?
GREG HUNT:
Well, no, no, the Commonwealth is part 15 of 17…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah.
GREG HUNT:
…and so it is what it is. So within that we had an absolutely full and thorough assessment of the Federal matters. But the Federal matters are only a very small part of a 17 part process. I know I- it sounds a bit complex and I apologise for that…
JUSTIN SMITH:
No, no that's alright. But it's a pretty…
GREG HUNT:
…it's a State project under State law and State planning.
JUSTIN SMITH:
But it's still a pretty important part. I mean your role in this and the Federal Government's role…
GREG HUNT:
I take it very seriously.
JUSTIN SMITH:
…is very important. Do you think you'll ever sway Barnaby Joyce around on it?
GREG HUNT:
Look, I'm not trying to. He's such a decent guy, so you know, intensely honourable. His views long predate before he even became a Member of the lower house, let alone a Member of the Government. And so I absolutely understand. But his primary concern has been with the New South Wales…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah, yeah.
GREG HUNT:
…Labor Land Planning process. And that's the thing that's really frustrated him.
JUSTIN SMITH:
It's good talking to you. Thanks very much, appreciate the chat.
GREG HUNT:
Thanks for being patient. Cheers.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Greg Hunt, the Federal Environment Minister.
(ENDS)