E&OE….
Topics: Entitlements, Shenhua Watermark mine approval, Labor’s plan to bring back a carbon tax, post-2020 emissions reduction targets
BARRIE CASSIDY:
Ok, next, our studio guest, the Environment Minister Greg Hunt, and while he joins us, here's the Prime Minister yesterday on the controversy around the Speaker Bronwyn Bishop.
Excerpt begins
TONY ABBOTT:
Look, I can understand why people are interested in this. I really can understand why people are interested in this. The public has rightly high expectations of its representatives and whenever something doesn't conform with their sense of what's right, obviously there's understandable excitement about it. But as I said, Bronwyn, she's done the right thing, she's a good Speaker, she has my confidence.
Excerpt ends
BARRIE CASSIDY:
Minister, thanks for your time this morning.
GREG HUNT:
Pleasure.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
Is that all that the Prime Minister should say or do you think he should be a little more critical of what Bronwyn Bishop has done?
GREG HUNT:
Look, I think the Prime Minister's made two very clear points. That it was wrong to take the flight. It was right to make the payment, to cover the cost and to include, as Gerard Henderson said, the 25 per cent penalty. So, let me make this clear: one, it was wrong, and as the Speaker said, clearly an error of judgment.
Two, it was right to pay the cost fully and with the additional amount. Three, I would say this because I've read some things in the Sydney Morning Herald this morning from the ALP: they are entitled, absolutely entitled to refer these matters to the AFP, but there is language bordering on a directive and a criticism of the AFP from Pat Conroy and I would gently say to Bill Shorten …
BARRIE CASSIDY:
Well that's because …
GREG HUNT:
I would gently say to Bill Shorten – you might want to counsel your junior members from directing or in any way trying to influence the conduct of an AFP investigation.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
But isn't that because they asked the AFP to investigate this, but the AFP in turn referred it to the bureaucracy?
GREG HUNT:
My point here is that none of us, anywhere in parliamentary life should try to influence the process, conduct or outcomes of an AFP investigation. I have complete trust in their judgment. I would hope that the Leader of the Opposition has complete and absolute trust in the AFP's judgment.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
Well how is it that when the Coalition picked up on the Peter Slipper matter, that it did go directly to the AFP?
GREG HUNT:
Well, what I can say is this – either side or anybody has the right to refer, and indeed, it's a fundamental element of our democracy, the right to refer a matter to the AFP. It is then entirely a matter for the AFP as to whether or not they believe it's a bureaucratic issue or there's a dishonesty question. I make no comment on their judgment.
I do make a comment on the fact, and I say this to Mr Shorten – you might want to counsel your members and to reaffirm your complete and utter support in the sanctity of the AFP, its independence and the fact that no Member of Parliament should try to influence the conduct or course of any inquiry.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
What's the difference then between this case and the Peter Slipper case given that Peter Slipper several times tried to repay the money, but instead was investigated and eventually charged by the AFP?
GREG HUNT:
Well for the AFP, precisely because of the reasons that I've just said, that's entirely a matter for them. But I imagine that they would make their own judgments as to whether or not there are issues of bureaucracy or dishonesty, but I don't want to add anything more, having just reaffirmed the sanctity of the AFP's process.
And I would gently say to Bill Shorten – today I would ask that you, Bill Shorten, reaffirm your belief in the complete and absolute integrity of AFP processes and discourage any of your members from trying to discredit or in any way influence their course of action.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
Does Bronwyn Bishop at least owe the Parliament and the country an apology, if not for the use of helicopter, in fact for the extravagant spending of taxpayer money?
GREG HUNT:
Well clearly she has acknowledged that she was wrong and she was wrong.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
She hasn't apologised.
GREG HUNT:
She did use the term yesterday apology in the course of her answer. Now we can argue about the language and tone and the way in which each of us does that. I'm not going to comment on a colleague, but I've made it clear in our discussions, you and I this morning, it was an error, it was wrong, she has repaid the full cost of it and with a penalty.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
She said the only thing she was sorry for is that she took the heat off Bill Shorten, a political opponent and she's the Speaker. She should be above politics.
GREG HUNT:
Well, you're incorrect.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
In what way?
GREG HUNT:
Because when she was asked about the question of an apology, she made the point that the strongest apology was the form of repayment. So she actually, in contradiction of what you've just said, used that term, dealt with (inaudible) answer …
BARRIE CASSIDY:
By repaying the money – that to her was her apology?
GREG HUNT:
My approach in life is very clear: if there is an error, I tend to apologise and indeed most mornings I'll apologise in advance to my wife for the inevitable errors I'm going to make during the course of a day. I think a bit of generosity of spirit is the way we should all deal with these things.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
I want to talk about the Shenhua coal mine now in New South Wales …
GREG HUNT:
Sure.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
… and of course the broadcaster Alan Jones is ferociously opposed to it…
GREG HUNT:
Correct.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
… as you well know. Let's just hear briefly from Alan Jones and then we'll go on.
Excerpt begins
ALAN JONES:
Across Australia, people have had a gutful of this. It ain't over; it hasn't even begun. But a brawl is on. And this rage is nothing like we've ever seen. This is a people revolution. Government has won and lost often on single-issue concepts and this is one.
Excerpt ends
BARRIE CASSIDY:
Do you find Alan Jones intimidating?
GREG HUNT:
No.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
Then why did you change policy midway through an interview with him?
GREG HUNT:
False.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
You called for a new review around this mine in the middle of the interview.
GREG HUNT:
False.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
In what way is that false?
GREG HUNT:
Well what you've just said is incorrect.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
But in the middle of the interview you said to Alan Jones there'd now be a new review. Now that was news to everybody.
GREG HUNT:
No. Let me take you through this. Firstly, the mine – this isn't a Commonwealth project. This isn't a project over which we have any choice as to whether it comes before us. It was a NSW Labor project. It was then approved by the NSW Coalition. And then it was advanced by Tony Burke when he was a Minister. We deal with stage 15 of 17. That's it. And it's only against matters of national environmental significance.
And what was missing and what was not understood, interestingly until that interview, was that this was always a conditional approval based on not just one or two, but 18 strict conditions, with three critical additional reviews which had to come. What we have done, and it would always have been considered by the Independent Expert Scientific Committee, is I have made – made it clear, and this came as no surprise to any of the participants, that I would actually make the final judgment dependent upon the decision and advice of the Independent Expert Scientific Committee.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
That's what you said in the middle of the interview and then went on to say, “This is above and beyond anything that has happened in Australian environmental history.”
GREG HUNT:
Correct. As I said when we – when we announced the conditional approval, these were the strictest conditions in Australian history. The strictest conditions when it was announced.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
This reads like you were under pressure from Alan Jones and you've come up – there was no suggestion of this expert scientific committee until that interview.
GREG HUNT:
With great respect, you're wrong. Let me explain. When we announced the conditional approval, and it still has to go for stages – for the final stage to the NSW Government – they determine whether a mining lease is approved – what I said was that there had to be three significant additional plans produced. Each of those came from the work of the Independent Expert Scientific Committee.
They are expressly referenced and we have done it precisely because of the advice of the Independent Expert Scientific Committee. And it is not unreasonable, it is entirely appropriate. It is a tougher standard than has previously been applied because I want to make sure there is absolute community confidence that the Independent Expert Scientific Committee, which is the independent umpire, does get the final say on these three additional plans which I've required as a matter of law.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
You've now held out some prospect though that the mine won't go ahead. How much are you prepared to pay not to build a mine?
GREG HUNT:
Well that's not a question for the Commonwealth. My judgment …
BARRIE CASSIDY:
But compensation could be an issue.
GREG HUNT:
Well, no, the Commonwealth makes its decisions under the Federal Environment Act on the basis of what are called matters of national environmental significance. This is not our project. We have no choice in whether or not the land was allocated, the tenement was allocated, to whom it was allocated. All were Labor Party decisions. All of those were Labor Party decisions.
All we do under the Act is to determine whether or not the matters of national environmental significance are appropriately managed and the conditions under which they do so. So this is by definition a conditional approval. Interestingly, that was barely covered in some of the analysis. I am pleased that the fact that this is a conditional approval has come out of some of the reporting this week because 18 conditions were always there – the toughest, the strictest, in my view in Australian environmental history.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
When is an emissions trading scheme not a carbon tax? Are there any circumstances under which an emissions trading scheme can be spoken about without it being dismissed as a carbon tax?
GREG HUNT:
No. This is one of the semantics. So what we've seen this week …
BARRIE CASSIDY:
So John Howard's emission trading scheme, that was a carbon tax?
GREG HUNT:
In my judgment, absolutely.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
So under no circumstances – you can't have even a straightforward ETS without it, in your mind, being a carbon tax?
GREG HUNT:
No, let me explain this because I do think it's a very important question. Whether you call it a carbon tax or an ETS, it's a tax on emissions. The semantic difference is some people try to say a carbon tax is a fixed price and an ETS is a floating price. Either way, it's taxing and driving up the price of electricity. It's taxing and driving up the price of gas. It's taxing and driving up the price of fertilisers, of refrigerants, of household goods.
It's intended to drive up the cost of living and in particular electricity and gas for mums and dads and for pensioners. And I would call on Bill Shorten not to rule out the semantics of a carbon tax, because you know he'll deliver it, but to completely ditch the policy, which is about driving up electricity prices.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
So no ETS under any circumstances?
GREG HUNT:
Correct.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
On the Paris meeting that's coming up on climate change and you need to set targets beyond 2020.
GREG HUNT:
We do.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
It's been delayed, but why delayed and for how long?
GREG HUNT:
Well actually what the Prime Minister has said is we'll deal with it in the next parliamentary sitting. That's entirely within the broader timeframes internationally and we will have a very strong and credible target. We're one of the few countries in the world to have met and beaten our first round of Kyoto targets. That's for 2008 to '12. Despite all the predictions of many of the sort of Labor Party critics, we are now well and truly on track to meet and beat our second round from now until 2020 and then we will set a very strong and credible post-2020 target and we'll do that in the coming weeks.
BARRIE CASSIDY:
Thanks for coming in this morning. Appreciate it.
GREG HUNT:
Thanks, Barrie.
(ENDS)