The Hon. Greg Hunt MP
Minister for Health and Aged Care
TRANSCRIPT
8 August 2021
INTERVIEW WITH DAVID SPEERS
ABC INSIDERS
E&OE…
Topics: NSW lockdown, Australian vaccine rollout.
DAVID SPEERS:
I want to go straight to our guest, the Health Minister. Greg Hunt, welcome to the program.
GREG HUNT:
Good morning.
DAVID SPEERS:
So, the Chief Medical Officer Paul Kelly says New South Wales clearly needs a circuit breaker. What is it?
GREG HUNT:
So, I know Paul is reflecting on the fact that New South Wales is doing an extraordinary job in containing a major outbreak. But to continue to move to suppression, it’s about encouraging people to stay home. It’s about the compliance which comes with the additional positive support of the Australian Defence Force on the ground and the continued vaccination.
We’ve seen almost 1.3 million Australians come forward for vaccination over the last week, and in New South Wales, we’ve been seeing over 80,000 a day being done.
But it’s that combination of measures of increased compliance, of people staying and home and realising that any one person can save a life or risk a life.
So all of the measures coming together. We’ve seen Australians work magnificently, work through difficult periods in the past, and we know we can do it again. And that’s what Paul Kelly’s referring to.
DAVID SPEERS:
Well, they’re all, yeah. They’re all things that are happening.
GREG HUNT:
It’s difficult, and it’s challenging, but we can do this.
DAVID SPEERS:
They’re all things that are happening, though. Is there a circuit breaker that he’s talking about here or that you are suggesting?
GREG HUNT:
Well, I think the message is actually quite clear: that all of the elements together, the ADF coming onto the ground, the focus on compliance, but above all else, the appeal to each individual that by staying at home, by not visiting, unfortunately not visiting family members, you can make that difference.
And we do know that many of those visits have unfortunately contributed to the spread.
DAVID SPEERS:
And this has been the message for six weeks now, and it clearly isn’t getting through to some. One of the things Paul Kelly did specifically suggest was looking at ways to help contact trace more quickly.
Now, I understand the COVIDSafe safe app hasn’t been used at all in this current outbreak in Sydney, or at least it hasn’t helped in tracking down one contact.
Given we’re going to need effective contact tracing for a long while yet, isn’t it time to replace this app with something more effective, something that uses the Google and Apple platforms?
GREG HUNT:
Well, that wouldn’t change the circumstance. So, it’s there, it’s available. We know that in a previous outbreak, over 430 links were identified, including previously unknown cases.
So it has that capacity.
DAVID SPEERS:
But not in this outbreak,
GREG HUNT:
Look, at this point, I’m not aware of any. But significantly, we have all of the different tools that are available.
So what’s the deep picture here? That in a world of, I think, yesterday, 870,000 cases, David, Australians have done magnificently.
It’s a difficult challenge for anybody in a lockdown phase. New South Wales is containing.
DAVID SPEERS:
Yeah, I appreciate that, but I’m just asking about the COVIDSafe app, though, Minister. The UK has an app that.
GREG HUNT:
And we can now continue to use all of these tools.
DAVID SPEERS:
Okay, but I’m just asking about the COVIDSafe app.
If it’s not effective, it’s not helping in this outbreak, why not at least look at something like the UK app?
GREG HUNT:
Well, there are no plans, and we continue to follow the both the technical and the medical advice on this.
It’s one of the options and one of the tools that’s available. The contact tracing in New South Wales is, I think, on all the evidence we have, arguably some of the best in the world.
DAVID SPEERS:
But it’s not keeping up now.
GREG HUNT:
This outbreak, without that contact tracing, would have been in a vastly different place. And so all of the measures work together.
Now, can we do more? Yes. Hence, we’re bringing forward over 180,000 vaccines to New South Wales on top of the 200,000 that we’ve provided.
DAVID SPEERS:
Where are they coming from, Minister? A lot of people are asking this, because you’ve also brought forward vaccines for Queensland and Victoria. Where are they coming from?
GREG HUNT:
Sure. So, where we’ve been able to work with Pfizer to ensure that we’ve got the supplies in Australia within the agreed amounts arriving earlier, then we’re making sure that they’re available earlier.
We were able to bring forward 3 million vaccines. We worked very hard with Pfizer. We were able to achieve that. The Prime Minister and myself approached the global head back in May when we saw an opportunity.
We’re working with them every week. And so as we can see, the supplies actually arrive in Australia, and if there’s the capacity within that, therefore, to bring forward on a per capita basis, we’ve done that.
We’ve provided the additional 200,000 doses to New South Wales. We’ve brought forward over 180,000 doses. They’re doing a magnificent job, both GPS and the state, in administering.
And we can see that in the near doubling of vaccination rates from 700,000 a month and a half ago per week to almost 1.3 million over the last seven days.
DAVID SPEERS:
Well indeed, just coming back to New South Wales, because-
GREG HUNT:
And what that does show, we can achieve a 2 million a week outcome in Australia. It’s now absolutely clear that as the next increase in Pfizer comes, along with the reference that you made to Moderna, that we will be able to achieve.
DAVID SPEERS:
Well, what can you tell us about Moderna? When will that- when will Moderna be here?
GREG HUNT:
So, our expectation is that we’ll have the first million in September. That’s obviously subject to the final approval of what’s called the Therapeutic Goods Administration.
But we’re expecting a result, and the guidance from Professor John Skerrett, the head of the TGA, is within the next two weeks, if not earlier. And there are no red flags. There are only very positive signs about a highly effective vaccine.
So we’d see an extra million in September, probably more towards the middle of September, but we haven’t got final guidance. And then 3 million a month through October, November, December on top of the very significant increase, the effective doubling of Pfizer from the million a week towards the 2 million a week.
And so we know the system in Australia and the demand are working together to deliver approximately 1.3 million vaccines in the last week. But that can increase.
And so Australia’s a great vaccination nation. We’ve been- we’ve done extraordinary things in a global pandemic of yesterday over 870,000 cases. We have to keep going now. And we can do this. We can do this.
DAVID SPEERS:
Well, let me come back to that. Because the situation right now is, yeah, is whether New South Wales can hold the line until all those doses you talk about are available, whether it can hold this lockdown.
Gladys Berejiklian is talking about potentially relaxing some restrictions when they’ve got 6 million jabs, first dose jabs, in people’s arms.
That would be about 50 per cent of the adult population, 40 per cent of the total population with one jab, if there are still dozens of cases in the community at that point. Should New South Wales relax any of these restrictions?
GREG HUNT:
To be fair, I’ve read the Premier’s words very closely, and what the Premier has talked about is incremental changes, which we see in any lockdown – that circumstances are tailored to the needs on the ground.
They’re committed to seeing the course. All our engagement with them is that they are very focused on suppressing these cases.
DAVID SPEERS:
And so what’s your view? Should any of the restrictions be relaxed at that point or not?
GREG HUNT:
Well, I think they have to judge it on the circumstances, and in terms of individual measures, we’ve always respected the rights of each particular state to make their decisions.
What we are seeing in New South Wales is what could have been a runaway outbreak because of Delta avoided. They are containing, but they’re in a battle. And as a country, we have continuously won these battles when compared with what we see around the world, a global pandemic on a scale not seen in 100 years.
It’s hurt, and it’s been hard for Australians, but they’ve been magnificent. And going forwards, I know we can do this again.
DAVID SPEERS:
But I just want to be clear on this point about when you- when to relax restrictions. Now, I appreciate it’s up to New South Wales to decide, but the Doherty Institute’s modelling shows that at 50 per cent vaccination coverage, you would still see rapid epidemic growth. You’d still see nearly 9000 deaths in the first six months across Australia.
That’s not consistent with a suppression phase, is it?
GREG HUNT:
Well, what we do see is that we have to continue to fight with a combination of all of the elements: borders, testing, tracing, distancing or lockdowns, these are the rings of containment, and vaccination. We need all of them.
And as the circumstances dictate, some can be applied more heavily. Others can be relied on less. Our goal, though, is always this notion of suppression and reduction in cases of working to zero community transmission.
And New South Wales is fighting that. They’re fighting to achieve these outcomes.
DAVID SPEERS:
But I guess my point is, if you move away from lockdowns before that 70 percent target, yeah, but if they move away from lockdowns, you might as well throw that roadmap out the window, right?
GREG HUNT:
Look, that isn’t our understanding. That’s none of our communications. Yesterday, I was with Brendan Murphy, and he took a call with Kerry Chant. And I had the opportunity to speak with the Chief Health Officer there.
They’re working very constructively.
DAVID SPEERS:
Right. So they’ll keep the lockdown ‘til 70 per cent? They’ll keep the lockdown ‘til 70 per cent?
GREG HUNT:
They are working on focusing their measures to the needs and containing the cases and working to suppress the cases, and so they’re committed. They’re committed to this fight.
DAVID SPEERS:
I understand that. Are they going to keep the lockdowns until 70 per cent are vaccinated?
GREG HUNT:
I don’t- where I think there is perhaps a misunderstanding in some of the conversation is it’s presented as binary – either it’s on or it’s off.
And what we’ve been able to see right across Australia is the strengthening of measures as required and the reduction of measures as it’s possible.
And so that’s the way to think of it, that measures can increase to control and measures can progressively decrease as it’s possible to do that.
DAVID SPEERS:
No, I appreciate that. I, just to be clear, though, you’re either in a lockdown or you’re not. You’re either in a lockdown or you’re not.
Is it clear whether New South Wales is going to lift this lockdown before 70 per cent at least are vaccinated?
GREG HUNT:
You’re asking me to make it to make a decision on behalf of others.
DAVID SPEERS:
No, no, just what your understanding is after those talks you referenced.
GREG HUNT:
What I can say is clear, David, is that they are committed to defeating COVID. That’s what I can say is clear.
And as to the way in which they’re doing it, one of the things which is really important is to continue to provide support for the public, because if the public has the support, then they are more committed to it.
So we’re expanding mental health support. We’re opening up 10 new Head to Health clinics across New South Wales and extending the ones in Victoria. Those clinics have been so important, along with Beyond Blue and Lifeline and the work of Headspace in giving people that support.
And if they have that support, they’re more able to sustain the challenging and difficult things which have allowed Australia to be a world leader. The vaccination rate’s soaring. The mental health is critical. The financial support is working.
All of these things are the things that have come together to give Australia an outcome which whilst difficult and with tragic losses is so different to the pandemic experience of 100,000 cases a day even now in the United States.
DAVID SPEERS:
No, I understand the international comparison. Okay. I just want to ask you a few other things. The priority for vaccines right now. Most of the transmission in Sydney is amongst younger workers, essential workers.
Look the Doherty Institute, again, is clear on this. It says: young and working age adults should be the priority for Pfizer now. Extending the rollout to people under 40 offers the greatest potential to reduce transmission.
Why don’t you do this now?
GREG HUNT:
Well, firstly, there have been over 1.5 million doses delivered to under-40s around Australia.
Secondly, what we’ve been doing is also prioritising those who are vulnerable, either in terms of passing it on or in their circumstances receiving it.
And you set out today exactly what’s occurring in New South Wales with the particular blitz on younger workers. And we’ve provided our vaccines to New South Wales so as they can especially focus on the younger workers.
Then in terms of the Doherty modelling, it’s very clear that the approach that’s been taken of prioritising the vulnerable has saved lives on an enormous scale.
DAVID SPEERS:
But it’s saying now under-40s should be the priority.
GREG HUNT:
And that’s, having worked very closely with the Doherty Institute, their timeframe and our timeframes are understandably aligned. We’ve been informed by Doherty.
The next phase is to move to the 30- to 39-year-olds. That’s probably the group which is most likely to spread because of the links to families and olders
DAVID SPEERS:
But not for a few more weeks at least, right?
GREG HUNT:
And that’s correct, and that’s the work that we’ve done with the Doherty. And I had exactly these discussions with Professor Jodie McVernon over the last week.
DAVID SPEERS:
Okay. They have to still wait a few more weeks. Okay. What about kids?
GREG HUNT:
That’s our guidance and our advice, yes.
DAVID SPEERS:
What about kids? Dr Anthony Fauci, the head of the- infectious disease expert in the US, he told 7:30 the other night that his view is that you really need to get the children vaccinated. They will get it. They will spread it, even if they’re not as likely to get severely ill.
Can we really move to Phase B and Phase C and let COVID circulate in the community when kids aren’t vaccinated?
GREG HUNT:
So, as of tomorrow, the immunocompromised children or children with underlying medical conditions, the Indigenous children and remote community children from 12 to 15 years of age will have access to Pfizer as part of the Phase 1B program. So exactly what you’re saying.
That’s about 220,000 children. The TGA or Therapeutic Goods Administration, our medical regulator, has approved Pfizer for 12- to 15-year-olds. That’s now being considered by the Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation, and all the advice is they are likely to open that up to kids and school-based vaccination programs are planned with every state or territory.
DAVID SPEERS:
So when will kids get it?
GREG HUNT:
It’s likely to be- well, it will be this year, and it’s likely to commence in the last quarter, if not earlier.
DAVID SPEERS:
But for all kids aged 12 and over?
GREG HUNT:
Hang on, David. Hang on. So the expectation – and this is in the hands of ATAGI or the Technical Advisory Group – is that they are likely to provide a positive recommendation. If they do that, we’re ready to provide that.
And on that age-based plan, it is likely that that will be for all of the fourth quarter that these vaccines should be available for kids.
And then also Moderna will be considered in two groups: the 18 years and over – and I’m very hopeful of a result on that, a positive result in the next two weeks, if not earlier; and then they will look at 12 to 18 years. And again, I’m hopeful, based on the results coming out of clinical trials, that we’ll be able to make those vaccines available.
So our goal is very clear: to ensure that every Australian who’s eligible is given that vaccination opportunity this year. And we believe that we are on track to do that.
DAVID SPEERS:
What about aged care, Minister?
GREG HUNT:
We’re now vaccinating more people per week than we would otherwise have expected to have been doing at this point in time.
DAVID SPEERS:
Okay. Aged care workers are required to be vaccinated. It’s mandatory for them by mid-September. That’s coming up. How many are now vaccinated?
GREG HUNT:
We’ve had 256,000 vaccinations across aged care at this point in time.
DAVID SPEERS:
What percent is it?
GREG HUNT:
And so, that’s 156,000 first doses and approximately 100,000 second. I think it’s about 56.7 per cent, although we’ll have those figures updated on Tuesday.
DAVID SPEERS:
40 per cent still aren’t vaccinated, what happens to them in five or so weeks when this mandate applies?
GREG HUNT:
Well, we actually have a plan for every facility in Australia and I met just yesterday with Lieutenant
General Frewen and we were working on that rollout plan, and that includes in-reach to facilities where they either have self-vaccination, visits by vaccination providers or visits by Commonwealth vaccination clinics or GPs.
There’s access on outreach to GPs, to Commonwealth vaccination clinics and to state clinics, so the opportunity will be there for every aged-care worker and indeed it’s been open for over five months to have that vaccination and every facility in Australia must have a plan and does have a plan to ensure that every worker is given that opportunity.
DAVID SPEERS:
Look, most Australians, as you know, are now in lockdown and as I’m sure you are aware there is a lot of anger being directed at the Government, at you for not doing enough earlier on vaccine supply.
Do you concede we may not be seeing as many infections now had you signed the deal with Pfizer 12 months ago when countries like the US, Canada, Japan, and Britain did?
GREG HUNT:
There was no other deal available. So we are happy to receive any criticism for the things that we control, but that notion of another deal being available has been completely and comprehensively debunked.
DAVID SPEERS:
So you could not have done a deal, is that what you’re saying? In July or August when these
other countries did?
GREG HUNT:
There was no other deal available for any earlier vaccines or any larger quantities, and so that is clear, and as we’ve been able to, we’ve expanded that.
This is precisely why we created sovereign domestic manufacturing in Australia. And imagine if we didn’t have that AstraZeneca? Already we’ve had well over 7 million AstraZeneca vaccines in Australia, and that includes 5 million first doses and 2 million second doses. That’s precisely why, precisely why we did that.
And I think New Zealand is doing an amazing job, but you can see the difference between comparable supplies of Pfizer across the two countries and the AstraZeneca input in Australia. And that is why we are fortunate to have a vaccine rollout which is significantly advanced in that respect, by that comparison.
They’re doing an amazing job, but that sovereign vaccine manufacturing capability came about precisely because we knew that the international supply would be focused initially on Europe and America where there was mass death, where they were manufacturing, where there were sovereign requirements.
DAVID SPEERS:
Alright. So you’re saying it was impossible? Okay, let me, we’re nearly out of time, but I just want to, okay.
I want to ask you finally, you did quietly change the rules this week on Australian expats, Australians who live and work abroad. If they come back home to see a loved one, they now have to apply for an exemption to leave again, return to where they’re living and working.
Former Howard Government Minister, Fran Bailey, contacted me yesterday about this. She says it’s appalling for any Australian Government to do this and announce it so sneakily, says she’s absolutely appalled a liberal government in particular would do this.
What’s your response to that?
GREG HUNT:
I understand this pandemic has been so hard for so many families. The decisions we’ve made are directly related to the ability to bring people into Australia and we’ve seen that with the Delta virus, it’s more infectious, and therefore we have to sadly – and I do understand the hurt for so many people – sadly we’ve had to contain the number of people who do come to Australia.
And that’s about saving lives and protecting lives. The whole pandemic, the whole pandemic, has been about saving lives and protecting lives. The new measures today, the mental health, the advice on the Moderna approvals, the advice on the new treatments, Sotrovimab which is likely to reduce the number of hospitalisations for some of the vulnerable who might catch COVID.
All of these things are about saving lives. The same with the border measures. Have we done it before? Yes. Can we do it again? Yes. Do I believe in just the extraordinary community spirit of Australians and how they’re coming forward to be vaccinated? Yes.
Do I have hope? I absolutely do.
DAVID SPEERS:
Minister, we appreciate your time this morning. Thanks for joining us.
GREG HUNT:
Thanks, David.
ENDS