E&OE….
Topics: Zaky Mallah, Renewable Energy Target, climate change, Great Barrier Reef
DAVID SPEERS:
Now to our guest this afternoon, the Environment Minister Greg Hunt, who last night saw that Renewable Energy Target legislation finally passed through the Senate. Thank you for your time.
GREG HUNT:
Pleasure.
DAVID SPEERS:
We're going to get to that in a moment, I just wanted to ask you about the news that's breaking in the last half hour or so. Ben Fordham, 2GB, reporting that Zaky Mallah, this terrorist suspect who appeared on Q&A the other night, the ABC paid for his transport to the studio. Does that concern you at all?
GREG HUNT:
Yes it does. If it is correct that the ABC and the Q&A program in particular have paid for cabs for convicted criminals then they need to answer serious questions. Who authorised the payment? Who knew about the payment? Why would they consider a criminal who has been convicted of threatening the life of an ASIO officer as an appropriate person?
And more than just that, somebody who has made the most vile and offensive remarks about the treatment of women. Violent, offensive remarks about the treatment of women, and they clearly knew, they not just knew but they provided a cab for a convicted criminal to come on their show. Somebody's got to answer questions.
DAVID SPEERS:
Some in Government ranks reckon you should boycott, Liberals should boycott the program. What's your view, will you do that?
GREG HUNT:
Look, my view has always been the tougher the interview the more I enjoy it, and there are home games and there are away games, and that has tended to be a bit of an away game. I'm never fussed by a difficult environment, but right now I think there are some serious questions which need to be answered.
DAVID SPEERS:
Alright, well let's get into some tough questions to you then, on your portfolio. Now, as part of the RET deal that went through the Senate last night, you've agreed to set up a wind farm commissioner.
GREG HUNT:
Correct.
DAVID SPEERS:
Why? What will that commissioner do?
GREG HUNT:
This is about getting people who have concerns, who have anxiety and emotional distress the opportunity and the avenue for expressing their complaints. I think if there are issues they need to be unearthed. If there aren't issues, nobody should be concerned. I've taken the advice of the National Health and Medical Research Council, and they've made two findings.
One – no findings to date that there are issues which can be directly drawn between health and wind farms, so I accept that finding on what they've said today. They have also said that there needs to be additional research so I accept that finding as well. The broader picture here is certainty for the renewable sector, 23.5 per cent. Certainty for jobs in the trade exposed sector, taking the pressure off electricity prices and we will actually see real renewable energy projects proceed, rather than a notional target.
DAVID SPEERS:
And on this wind farm commissioner though, beyond being a point for people to complain to, will they have any power? What will they actually do with all those complaints?
GREG HUNT:
So we will obviously work through the detail of it now with both the industry and with the crossbench in good faith. It's not a statutory position. I have said that right from the outset. It will be a position that will be appointed up by the Department, so we will work through the detailed operation, but it's not a statutory position.
DAVID SPEERS:
But again, what will they actually do?
GREG HUNT:
So the purpose, the intent, the goal is to provide an avenue, a genuine avenue, for people who have concerns about the operation. Whether they are compliant, whether they are interfering with the enjoyment of somebody's home life, whether they have concerns about issues relating to their own circumstances, to make those complaints, to be investigated.
DAVID SPEERS:
But with respect you could do that with a post box. You can have- you know, if it's about having a point at which people can complain to, you know, you just say the Departmental Secretary, or someone in the Department. What will the commissioner actually do with those complaints?
GREG HUNT:
Well, this is somebody who will consider, investigate and make findings. Now as to the specifics of the operation, I think it's legitimate and reasonable for us to work both with the industry and with the crossbench. But the Senate Select Committee has made an interim recommendation that there should be an avenue for people with complaints.
And the reason why is because, whether you agree or disagree with those that are making the complaints, there are clearly people who are deeply, emotionally distressed and I think it's reasonable to acknowledge that they have their concerns.
DAVID SPEERS:
Alright, but they will make findings about whether wind farms are actually bad for the environment or bad for human health?
GREG HUNT:
Well, there are two things here. There will be the commissioner to make enquiries and to make appropriate findings. There's also an Independent Scientific Committee, which will follow through on the advice of the National Health and Medical Research Council.
DAVID SPEERS:
Okay, but I'm just trying to establish – if this commissioner makes a finding that a particular wind turbine is bad for the environment or bad for health, they then, what? Make a recommendation to the Government, or to someone else that it should go?
GREG HUNT:
Obviously that will be something that will be considered by the Government and the Clean Energy Regulator…
DAVID SPEERS:
Is that your preference? That they would have the power to recommend that a wind turbine be removed?
GREG HUNT:
Look, I respect your question, I respectfully won't pre-empt the final discussions with the industry…
DAVID SPEERS:
No, no, you've offered this commissioner, so…
GREG HUNT:
I won't pre-empt the final form because I think it's appropriate for me to consult with the crossbench, to consult with our own senators and members, and to consult with the industry.
DAVID SPEERS:
Why do we need a commissioner for wind farms and a scientific committee on wind farms and not, say, for coal seam gas, a commissioner that can receive complaints about how terrible coal seam gas may be for the environment or for health?
GREG HUNT:
That is an important question and the answer is that we have an Independent Expert Scientific Committee on coal seam gas and coal mining…
DAVID SPEERS:
There's no commissioner, no point that people can complain to, though, is there?
GREG HUNT:
This has very significant powers. In fact it has legislative backing. They make findings which have to be considered by the Minister, that's a matter of law. The Budget, as I recall, is about $100 million. So something of multiple orders of magnitude greater than what would be considered here. So, you already have an Independent Expert Scientific Committee for coal seam gas and coal mining of an order of magnitude dramatically greater than…
DAVID SPEERS:
Alright, but just not a commissioner though, who can make rulings or recommendations?
GREG HUNT:
Look, I think what we've got is an appropriate balance here.
DAVID SPEERS:
How much is the wind farm commissioner going to cost?
GREG HUNT:
Look, it will be a net zero cost to budget. We will do it within budget…
DAVID SPEERS:
How do you do that?
GREG HUNT:
Well, I think we do that within the resources of the Department. All up the environment portfolio budget, not just the department, is close to $2.5 billion a year. We can make space in just the same way as we did for our Threatened Species Commissioner. There was some scepticism. Gregory Andrews is that Commissioner. He has done a brilliant job, run plaudits around the country, driving projects, getting physical outcomes and bringing communities with him.
DAVID SPEERS:
Can you understand, Graeme Innes, the former disability – now former Disability Services Commissioner who's, you know, position was dropped after a government funding cut, saying well, hang on, you can't afford a Disability Commissioner but you can afford one for wind farms.
GREG HUNT:
Well, we do have a Disability Commissioner, Susan Ryan is the Disability Commissioner…
DAVID SPEERS:
And the Aged Services Commissioner…
GREG HUNT:
Correct. She's a…
DAVID SPEERS:
You don't have a solely Disability Services Commissioner anymore because it was a $1.7 million cut.
GREG HUNT:
She's a former Labor Government Minister. She is a very capable person…
DAVID SPEERS:
My point is she wears a number of hats though…
GREG HUNT:
…she wears two hats, that's right, and she discharges them both well. The point that you've just made though, is that the Human Rights Commission has a very significant bureaucracy – a very significant major budget. This is something on a dramatically smaller scale. It represents, really, for the first time, the avenue for people with concerns and there are those on both sides of this debate and I absolutely acknowledge it but I think it's appropriate and reasonable that there be a person to whom people can approach.
DAVID SPEERS:
Just a final one on wind farms, do you find them ugly and noisy?
GREG HUNT:
Look, beauty's in the eye of the beholder and I'm less fussed than some.
DAVID SPEERS:
Because the Prime Minister does – you don't share that personal view?
GREG HUNT:
Everybody can draw their own views and, you know, some people like Picasso, I like Dali and I say everybody can draw their own judgements and I'm less fussed.
DAVID SPEERS:
Is it true he's the only one, the Prime Minister, who's complained about the Rottnest Island wind farm?
GREG HUNT:
I don't know.
DAVID SPEERS:
Alright. Let me turn to the emissions target. Now, we are some three weeks, roughly, away from the Government announcing its post-2020 targets. Canada and the US have now announced theirs. Can we assume we'll see something similar from Australia?
GREG HUNT:
Look, we will make a very credible and ambitious target. There is good support, we're heading in very much the right direction. The decision last night with Renewable Energy Target will effectively save Australia 50 million tonnes of abatement between 2020 and 2030 compared with the projections, the base that we have used in the last national forecasts.
So, we actually reduce our emissions by 50 million tonnes as a consequence of moving from an intended 27,000 to an actual 33,000 gigawatt hours – big savings. In our first Emissions Reduction Fund auction, 47 million tonnes…
DAVID SPEERS:
Seem to be quite…
GREG HUNT:
…and every day we are seeing…
DAVID SPEERS:
…you could be quite ambitious here if you're so buoyant about so far so good…
GREG HUNT:
Every day we're seeing we're making more and better progress.
DAVID SPEERS:
So, can we afford something in line with Canada's promised cut?
GREG HUNT:
So, we will be very ambitious and you know what? Unlike many other countries, when we make the pledge, we'll achieve it. So, I have noted before – so it's not a new point – that the United States promised minus seven per cent from- for their 2010 goal, they were close to plus eight per cent. We beat our target for the first round of Kyoto, we will beat our target for the second round of Kyoto which is 2012 to 2020 and then we'll make a third pledge for the post-2020 period, which is credible but ambitious and you know as a country, we'll meet it again and that's my view.
DAVID SPEERS:
You've said the words very ambitious there. Do you think what the US and Canada have put on the table so far has been very ambitious?
GREG HUNT:
Look, I think they've been extremely constructive. I'm not going to try to pre-empt any internal discussions but I've got to say in the climate change space, in the emissions reduction space, where Australia is at is that we agree on the science, we've had agreement on the targets and I'm hopeful that we will get ALP agreement.
We have a clear disagreement on whether or not we should be whacking an electricity tax on people and whether or not there's a better way. The results of the first round of the Emissions Reduction Fund were stunning and I think Australians will make a clear determination as they have that we shouldn't be hiking electricity prices, we should be directly reducing emissions and we'll achieve our targets and I am very hopeful that we will do it in a way which has support from all parties.
DAVID SPEERS:
Let me ask you this – will you be guided in setting these targets by the agreed goal of limiting global warming to two degrees?
GREG HUNT:
Yes, absolutely.
DAVID SPEERS:
So what Australia produces won't allow global temperatures to allow global temperatures to rise more than two degrees?
GREG HUNT:
So what France has said and I've met with Segolene Royal, who's the French Minister for Ecology. They are setting out for a goal of two degrees. They're limiting global warming to two degrees, but they don't want to make the mistake of Copenhagen of an all or nothing, the fact that the perfect should not be the enemy of the good.
So their goal is to get as close to it as possible. They have said they think that the world may not get all off the way but then of course there will be a new pledging round, whether it's in four or five years. And so make real and significant process now, allow us to build the platform to go further if necessary within a few years.
DAVID SPEERS:
Can you just remind us, the target that we do take to Paris at the end of the year that will require legislation through the Australian Parliament to make it?
GREG HUNT:
No.
DAVID SPEERS:
It won't?
GREG HUNT:
No. So it's not a legislative target…
DAVID SPEERS:
Right.
GREG HUNT:
…it hasn't been and…
DAVID SPEERS:
So it's not binding in any way?
GREG HUNT:
…and it won't be. Well, no it has international impact. Although the formal proposed 2020 agreement is not known and determined yet. So, you know, under the…
DAVID SPEERS:
What are you hoping for on that front? As to whether it should be binding?
GREG HUNT:
…our preference would be to have an agreement which is both binding in terms of what's called measurement and verification, so the standards to which people set themselves, and also in terms of the outcomes. Frankly, because of what the United States and China have said, we are likely to get an agreement that is binding in terms of countries signing up to the standards but countries not going as far as Australia would like and binding themselves to the target. And the reason I say that is because it means that people will set realistic targets and then achieve them in the way that we have done, not just once but twice as a country so far.
DAVID SPEERS:
And what do you want China to do? Because it's yet to announce exactly what it's going to do post-2020. Do you want to see more than simply a commitment to lower their emissions intensity – do you want to see them say we are going to cut our emissions?
GREG HUNT:
Well, we would we love to see China setting a timeframe, not just to cap their emissions, which is where they've now gone to, they've said they'll cap emissions by 2030. But clearly to reduce their emissions.
Because what we're seeing at the moment is China moving from 3 billion tonnes in 1990 to roughly 12 billion tonnes of emissions now, the fastest growth in emissions in human history. And I don't say that as a criticism. Hundreds of millions of people have been pulled from poverty and that is a great human outcome. But it's come with an impact in terms of emissions. So we would love to see them moving to the next phase of reducing emissions.
DAVID SPEERS:
Final issue, you're off to Germany next week, to Bonn…
GREG HUNT:
Correct.
DAVID SPEERS:
…the World Heritage Committee – what's the chances now of the Great Barrier Reef being put on an in-danger list?
GREG HUNT:
So the draft recommendation praises Australia and not only makes sure that Australia is not heading down the in-danger path for the Great Barrier Reef but sets a very positive future. Now, my hope and my expectation is that that will be adopted. We will wait, and that's why I'm going, because it is immensely important to Australia. But what a turnaround. A few years ago, in 2011, Australia and the Great Barrier Reef were put on a path to being in danger.
We have turned that around and we have ended the practice of dredge disposal in the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park, nearly 350,000 square kilometres. That in my view will never happen again. That has gone around the world, as well as the $2 billion plan, the Reef 2050 plan, the targets for reducing sediment and nitrogen and nutrient runoff. And the world is actually now looking to Australia as a model for responding to World Heritage Committee recommendations and for managing the great coral reefs which do threaten- do face the challenges.
DAVID SPEERS:
Has this whole process and the threat of a danger listing been a wakeup call do you think for Federal and State Government?
GREG HUNT:
Honestly? Yes, it has. In 2011 and 2012 and 2013, I think the response under the previous Government was a little bit slow. We made process in 2014 but this deadline allowed us to do things that I would hope to do once in a career. And the dredge ban, the Reef 2050 plan, the additional nearly quarter of a billion dollars on top of the almost $2 billion total for the Reef over the coming decade, that's been something you dream of doing. And UNESCO, whilst uncomfortable for Australia, has helped us to achieve this outcome.
DAVID SPEERS:
Environment Minister Greg Hunt. Thank you very much for joining us this afternoon.
GREG HUNT:
Thanks David.
(ENDS)