E&OE….
Topics: Clean Energy Finance Corporation, Shenhua Watermark mine approval, Great Barrier Reef
CHRIS KENNY:
And welcome back to Viewpoint, we're joined now by the Environment Minister Greg Hunt from Melbourne, thanks for joining us Minister.
GREG HUNT:
And good evening Chris.
CHRIS KENNY:
Now I want to start off with this- there's quite a few things I want to get through with you, but first up the story that's been running all day about what Bill Shorten calls the Government's ‘war on windmills’. Now of course the Clean Energy Finance Corporation has changed its rules, you're not going to invest any longer in wind energy developments, but the reports this morning suggested that you either disagreed with this decision or were kept out of it. What went on? Do you support this decision to stop funding wind energy projects through the CEFC?
GREG HUNT:
Look I was engaged throughout it and indeed support the position of focusing the Clean Energy Finance Corporation on its original purpose, its original mandate, of supporting large scale solar and emerging technologies. So much so that in fact I did the work with the crossbench, we put it in writing, I think the date of my letter was 23 June. We tabled it in the Senate to say that we would write as a government- I was the responsible minister for the Renewable Energy Target negotiations and therefore worked with Mathias Cormann who's the responsible minister for the Clean Energy Finance Corporation.
I tabled my letter after working with him, he then wrote to the CEFC to enact exactly what we said with the Senate that we would focus on large scale solar and there is a major large scale solar package here. We're supporting large scale solar, we're supporting energy efficiency, we're supporting emerging technologies, these are things that I would have thought folks would like if they are from the Greens or the ALP but of course they're finding a basis for criticising a move away from investing in projects that were already happening to projects which do need the support.
CHRIS KENNY:
Well Fairfax is reporting tonight also and it seems as you say it seems like this was detailed some time ago in the Senate anyway but this will also affect investments in home solar programs. The CEFC won't be funding projects that aim to lift home solar development. That's not going to popular either is it?
GREG HUNT:
Well actually let me go right back to the Renewable Energy Target. There's no change to household solar, prices have dropped dramatically, it is likely to produce between double and triple what was initially anticipated at the time the Renewable Energy Target was negotiated.
There is a Renewable Energy Target not of 20 per cent, which was the pre-election election pledge from the Coalition but 23.5 per cent and the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, which it's always been our policy to abolish because my own department's figures say we spend $10 billion but create no additional renewable energy because of the Renewable Energy Target – create no additional renewable energy…
CHRIS KENNY:
But, yeah, well I want to come to that in a second but you're confirming that the…
GREG HUNT:
… and our approach then is to say well let's focus on emerging and large scale solar which was precisely what we tabled in the Senate. That's what we tabled, couldn’t have been more public only a few weeks ago.
CHRIS KENNY:
Yeah sure I accept that but people have noticed it now, at least Fairfax Media have and they're making a lot of play of it and you're confirming then of course that there'll be no investment through the CEFC in additional programmes to boost home solar…
GREG HUNT:
Look I will let Mathias Cormann who's the relevant Minister focus on the CEFC but…
CHRIS KENNY:
Well he's confirmed that on Twitter…
GREG HUNT:
Good. The agreement that we reached and tabled in a letter to the Senate which was published so it was completely transparent was the CEFC will return to its initial mandate of large scale solar, emerging technologies and energy efficiency.
The mature technologies are just that – mature technologies and many people would ask why would you invest taxpayers' money, which of course has to be borrowed, because we were left with a deficit, to put it into an existing wind farm such as the Macarthur Wind Farm. I remember raising questions about that a long while ago.
CHRIS KENNY:
I'll give you a good reason to do it that way and that is that I think the whole Clean Energy Finance Corporation shouldn't be there, I agree that the Government wants to abolish it, it was something that was supposed to be funded from the carbon tax which doesn't exist anymore, so it's a massive government fund investing in energy where the private sector should be investing but one reason to stick with investing in wind energy is because it's a sure bet. Is because you'll get a decent return on it, taxpayers won't lose any money, if you must have this fund, surely it's a good thing to actually get a decent return on it.
GREG HUNT:
Well actually it was never funded from the carbon tax, that money was already being spent elsewhere. It was always funded from borrowing $10 billion. The purpose of it, the intent, the concept was to focus on emerging technologies and we've made sure that it is sticking to its original intent. We couldn't have been clearer – large scale solar, emerging technologies and energy efficiency and that's what…
CHRIS KENNY:
Emerging technologies and new innovation that can't get financed elsewhere, that's what it's…
GREG HUNT:
That's what its purpose was, that's what its purpose is.
CHRIS KENNY:
But it puts taxpayers' money then at higher risk because you're taking a punt on innovation.
GREG HUNT:
I think you'll find that there are also prudential requirements that Mathias Cormann has placed on the Corporation so as to ensure that any investment that is made is prudent, we’ll ensure that there's a return. Look this is not our preferred institution, but if it is going to operate it should be focusing on the emerging technologies, this was why Labor created it.
And if Labor believes that it should be funding existing wind farms in place of a Renewable Energy Target, which is the real mechanism for driving renewable investment, then they should say so. But we support renewables. We've just produced a deal with a 23.5 per cent Renewable Energy Target. What we don't support is double-dipping where the Renewable Energy Target is in place, but there is on top of that a variation of the purpose, the mandate, the intent of the finance corporation. Pretty clear.
CHRIS KENNY:
Okay, and your…
GREG HUNT:
Always in the public domain through a letter tabled in the Senate and widely commented on at the time. A very odd story today.
CHRIS KENNY:
Indeed, indeed, indeed. Well we've covered it off, and when you've got the numbers in the Senate you'll get rid of that fund anyway so that you won't have that problem about where it's sticking its money then, where it's investing then.
I want to move on to another thorn if you like in your portfolio and that is the Watermark coalmine that you approved last week, gave Federal approval for last week on the Liverpool Plains. You've got Barnaby Joyce saying that this is a world gone made, that you shouldn't have this coal mine in such prime agricultural country. He has a point doesn't he? There's a lot of coal resources in this country, why should we be putting large-scale coal mines right in the middle of prime agricultural land?
GREG HUNT:
Well, look, with respect I think there are a number of incorrect statements in what you've just said. Firstly this is a Labor project. It started under the Labor Government, as oddly enough, many of the projects that come to me have been – came from State Labor Governments.
CHRIS KENNY:
Well hang on a sec, hang on a second, if you said I've got something wrong what did I get wrong? I never said it was a Labor or a Liberal project. You're the one that had to give that approval last week.
GREG HUNT:
Now we, we did stage. Chris – we did stage…
CHRIS KENNY:
The mine doesn't have a political party; the mine is just a mine, or a resource.
GREG HUNT:
We did stage 15 of 17, so it's a state project started by the State ALP, then continued by the State Liberal National Coalition in New South Wales. What happens here is the Federal Government has one small part. We administer the Federal Environment Act, and that deals with matters of national environmental significance.
It is not in prime agricultural land, you were respectfully but utterly incorrect on that. It is prohibited by law from being in any of the black soil plain areas. It's in fact the hill country, that has always been the case. And these are not projects that we bring forward, these are projects which are advanced through State Law, and then have to be considered under Federal Law.
CHRIS KENNY:
Alright, now you approved it…
GREG HUNT:
The advice of the department, the advice of the scientists, six separate scientific processes of analysis said at its absolute maximum it would use 1/1000 of the available water. So the advice could not have been clearer and there's no question that as a Federal Minister if you have scientific advice, departmental advice, legal advice, and all three of those things come together, any other decision would have been overturned by the courts and the toughest conditions we put in place probably stripped away.
CHRIS KENNY:
You've just explained your decision, you said that I got a number of things wrong in my question, you haven't pointed out anything I got wrong there. Your Agricultural Minister…
GREG HUNT:
…prime agricultural land. You said it was prime agricultural land, that's false.
CHRIS KENNY:
I said in the middle – the mine is in the middle – this project is in the middle of prime agricultural land. That's what I said, and that is right.
GREG HUNT:
But it's not a prime agricultural land.
CHRIS KENNY:
And you're saying that it won't stray into that black soil. Now your own Agriculture Minister, your Coalition colleague Barnaby Joyce has spoken out blatantly against this project. Here's what he had to say last week.
Excerpt begins
BARNABY JOYCE:
Well I think people have known always that I never supported a mine on – in the middle of Australia's best farming country. I don't see why this exploration license was ever given in the first place by the Labor Party. It's not because of the people in the area, I'm not that parochial, it's because it's a dopey place to have a mine.
Excerpt ends
CHRIS KENNY:
Well that's the Agriculture Minister Barnaby Joyce, now Tony Abbott the Prime Minister tried to downplay this, said that Barnaby Joyce was just speaking as a backbencher. Barnaby Joyce says no, he's speaking as the Agricultural Minister and Labor's agricultural spokesperson had a bit to say about that this morning.
Excerpt begins
JOEL FITZGIBBON:
He only has two choices – he backs in the Government's decision or he resigns. And can I say this would be good advice to Barnaby Joyce – the only way he now rebuilds credibility and support in his own electorate is to walk away from the cabinet, to go back to his backyard and defend his local people.
Excerpt ends
CHRIS KENNY:
Well that's what Labor says, you might expect them to say that, but Barnaby's got other allies, he's even got an Independent in the Senate backing him up.
Excerpt begins
JACQUI LAMBIE:
How can any Tasmanian farmer trust a Liberal Federal Government not to allow mining on their prime agricultural land? And no Barnaby, you haven't done everything in your power to stop the mine; you could resign from the frontbench, because obviously the Liberals have no respect for you and the Nationals.
Excerpt ends
CHRIS KENNY:
Now there we've seen the reaction. Greg Hunt this is very ugly for the Coalition to have this split in the Cabinet, I know it's not a Cabinet decision, but you've got your Cabinet colleague campaigning like this and others jumping on the back of it. Do you think Barnaby Joyce should just hold his tongue now and abide by the Government's decision and your department's decision?
GREG HUNT:
Look to be fair he's always had the concern about what is essentially a New South Wales land planning decision. And never agreed with that decision to allocate, and I respect that. That isn't a matter for decision under the Federal Environment Act. Under the Federal Act we are only able to deal with a very narrow range of matters. And he and many others have often commented on the fact that this isn't an area where the Federal Government was likely to have been able to make a decision other than the one it did. And his primary concern has been with land planning.
My view is, and I've expressed this to the New South Wales Planning Minister, that they ought to do a 100-year plan on land that should be available for minerals resource work, and land which should be available for farming. But under the Federal law, under the Federal environment advice, under the six sets of scientific advice, each one was clear and categorical.
So any decision other than the one we made would have been at odds with all the advice, and would almost inevitably have been overturned by the courts and the conditions, which are the toughest in Australian history, stripped away. So, there's no question. It is stage 15 of 17, now it's to New South Wales.
CHRIS KENNY:
So should Barnaby Joyce then pull his head in and just abide by your decision then? Take up his fight with the New South Wales Government. That's what you're saying, that's where he should be arguing.
GREG HUNT:
No no, I will not be- have words put into my mouth, I will use my words thank you. And the position is very clear, he is somebody who has a long-standing objection. And I respect that. He's a good man and a decent man and he's a fundamentally honest man. We've had lots of engagement over this and because of Barnaby I met with the community, I deferred the decision, took two additional stages of questions, taking every question that the community wanted to put to the Independent Expert Scientific Committee.
And the Independent Expert Scientific Committee came back clearly and categorically, we adopted every one of their recommendations, I met with them, and it couldn't have been clearer in terms of the advice. The fundamental issue, which I know that Barnaby has, is with the initial allocation under New South Wales land planning laws. And I understand that that's a concern. But this is something where people can have a difference of view. The legal position though, the responsibilities as Environment Minister could not …
CHRIS KENNY:
Yep, you've mentioned those, you've mentioned those a couple of times.
GREG HUNT:
…be absolutely clearer.
CHRIS KENNY:
I do want to move on because we…
GREG HUNT:
Yes I have, because I think it's important to re-emphasise.
CHRIS KENNY:
…we're running out of time. I do want to move on to another issue, which I'm certain you'll be keen to talk about, and that is your recent success in preventing moves to have the UNESCO World Heritage Committee list the Great Barrier Reef as endangered. Now, this got a lot of publicity at the time in the lead-up, a lot of people saying the Reef was in danger, including President Obama, helpfully, on a visit to Australia.
You had major green groups, such as the World Wildlife Fund, Greenpeace, and a range of other groups who sometimes get government funding, at the very least they get tax exemption from governments, they were trying to ensure that the Great Barrier Reef was listed as endangered. Why on earth would they have wanted to do that?
GREG HUNT:
Well they will have to explain to themselves. But they angered community in Queensland, they angered Indigenous leaders, they angered tourism operators and they angered the farm community. Some of them, for their own purposes, were deliberately trying to have the Reef listed ‘in danger’. It was put on the watch list under Labor in 2011, and 12, and 13. Under us in 2015 it came off the watch list. Twenty-one countries are on the committee, 21 countries spoke, all endorsed the return to a normal reporting cycle, all praised Australia.
And in Germany, just over a week ago, the centrepiece, the fundamental outcome of the conference along with what was known as the Bonn Declaration, was Australia being praised as, to quote the chair of the conference, a role model to the world in terms of how to manage World Heritage properties.
CHRIS KENNY:
It was a good outcome and congratulations on it. You've also banned any of these dumping of dredging in the Reef Marine Park and the like.
GREG HUNT:
Correct.
CHRIS KENNY:
My final question though is if these green groups campaigned so strongly against what is seemed to be in the national interest both in terms of tourism and the environment, why does the Government continue to give them tax-free status, and grants, and the like? Shouldn't you look at cutting back on government support for some of these green groups given the campaigns they run?
GREG HUNT:
Well the first thing is that, as inconvenient as it can be, I don't mind if people are critical of us. I do care if they are accurate. So that isn't the basis for making decisions. The second thing is that there is a House of Representatives inquiry into making sure that any tax deductibility is carried out in a way consistent with the law.
And that's being conducted by Alex Hawke and the Federal House of Representatives Environment Committee. So, I will let them run their course. Just because somebody's views are different to mine, that isn't a reason to take an adverse decision.
CHRIS KENNY:
Indeed. Alright.
GREG HUNT:
But what is important is that probity is carried out.
CHRIS KENNY:
Thanks very much Greg Hunt, you've been generous with your time. Appreciate you joining us on Viewpoint.
GREG HUNT:
Thanks Chris.
CHRIS KENNY:
That's the Environment Minister, Greg Hunt.
(ENDS)