E&OE….
Topics: Australia’s 2030 emissions reduction target, marriage equality
FRAN KELLY:
Greg Hunt is the Environment Minister, he's in our Parliament House studios. Minister, good morning.
GREG HUNT:
Good morning Fran.
FRAN KELLY:
Now you say that this target will half Australia's emissions on a per capita basis, but we will still have the highest emissions of all the world's advanced economies on a per capita basis, won't we?
GREG HUNT:
Well there's no doubt we do start from a different position, this is the historic legacy that Australia has.
FRAN KELLY:
A different position? What do you mean?
GREG HUNT:
We start from a position of higher per capita emissions than other developed world countries.
FRAN KELLY:
And we'll remain there won't we?
GREG HUNT:
That's a simple fact. We will be in a position which is higher than most other countries, the final position is uncertain but what we do know is that in terms of burden sharing of all of the major economies, of all of the developed world countries, Australians and Australia will reduce emissions on the highest per capita basis. A reduction of 50 per cent, a halving of emissions per head of population.
FRAN KELLY:
I'm just trying to clarify does that mean we will still be the highest per capita emitter of all the world's advanced economies even after this target?
GREG HUNT:
You can phrase it either way you like. We will be doing more than any other country on a per capita basis amongst the major economies and amongst the developed world economies and that's something which Australians should be proud, coming from where we are now, to where we're going.
FRAN KELLY:
Shouldn't a country like Australia be aiming higher than best improver but still worst?
GREG HUNT:
Well I think that what you have to do is look at this in terms of what is environmentally responsible, economically responsible, and achievable. There are many countries that made pledges previously which did not achieve them, of course the United States pledged that it would be minus seven, but ended up plus eight in their first round of Kyoto targets, indeed they didn't end up signing Kyoto but compared with their pledge and their delivery in 2010, what you saw was a promise and sadly they weren't able to do it. Now however, they are making progress and I really welcome and endorse that.
FRAN KELLY:
I mean they're making more progress than us aren't they? I mean their target is higher than ours, the prime minister keeps saying that Australia is fairly and squarely in the middle of comparable economies but the US is doing more.
GREG HUNT:
Well I think you'll find that the United States is doing from 2005 to 2025 minus 26 to minus 28 per cent. What is Australia doing? Minus 26 to minus 28 from 2005 to 2030 and yes it is a slightly different timeframe.
FRAN KELLY:
That's five years difference, that's five years difference. That's a long time in this kind of timeframe.
GREG HUNT:
But this is a huge achievement for Australia and all of the critics will say we never do figures like this. Well we delivered the repeal of the carbon tax which produced at best estimates 12 million tonnes of reduction at almost $1300 per tonne of abatement and replaced it with the Emissions Reduction Fund, which produced 47 million tonnes of reduction at one per cent of that cost per tonne of abatement in just the auction. That's allowed us to achieve this outcome. China is plus 150 per cent, Korea is minus four per cent, Japan is minus 25 per cent.
FRAN KELLY:
Canada is 30 per cent by 2030, the UK, the EU, they are much higher than us.
GREG HUNT:
Wait a second and let me finish please. We are minus 26 to minus 28 and yes Canada is fractionally more at minus 30, they missed – they missed – their Kyoto targets dramatically the first time round. We achieved our first round of Kyoto targets.
Despite all of the critics when we came in to Government, we will proudly, not just meet but beat our second round of Kyoto targets and now we set another target which we will meet and achieve and so I think that's a record of which Australians should rightly be proud and now we're doing something- we are the world leaders amongst all major economies in reducing emissions on a per capita basis.
FRAN KELLY:
I guess the only target that …
GREG HUNT:
I understand the critics will try to attack that, but this is a significant, major contribution.
FRAN KELLY:
I suppose the only target that counts really for the world, for all of us, is whether we manage to avoid two degrees warming by the turn of the century and a lot of people, you call them your critics, but a lot of people doubt that these post-2020 targets from Australia put us on track for our contribution for that. Will you release the modelling that shows that this cut is enough to keep us on track to that two degree warming goal?
GREG HUNT:
Well I think the- of course we are going to release our modelling.
FRAN KELLY:
When will you do that?
GREG HUNT:
We'll do that in the coming days but let me be very clear here Fran, what is Paris? Paris is a framework to achieve the two degrees …
FRAN KELLY:
Yes.
GREG HUNT:
And Australia is part of that and so when you look at minus 26 to minus 28 for the United States, minus 25 for Japan, minus 26 to minus 28 for Australia, minus 30 for New Zealand and Canada, all of those are in a very similar ballpark, the single biggest driver of emissions increase in the world is the 150 per cent increase in China, followed closely by what is happening in India, so what will help the world is the contributions by the developing nations, what will save the global climate is a global response which brings on board China, India, and Indonesia and Brazil and so a good global agreement is fundamental.
But everybody involved in the process says that Paris is the beginning point, not the end point, to do what you're proposing of repeating the mistake of Copenhagen, of one throw of the dice, would be a tragic global error, and I must counsel against it.
FRAN KELLY:
Minister, attention is turning now to how we're going to achieve, and how much this is going to cost, the efforts to achieve these post-2020 targets. It seems to be agreement that you can't buy this level of emission reduction just through the Emission Reduction Fund, which is funded by the taxpayer of course.
The AI Group says quote, if the target were delivered solely through budget spending, through the ERF, it would cost between $100 billion and $250 billion in unadjusted terms. Now, your budget's around $200 million a year for the ERF, how are we going to fund that?
GREG HUNT:
We don't accept those figures. We don't accept those figures.
FRAN KELLY:
That's a big gap though, between $200 million and $100 billion.
GREG HUNT:
Well those figures are frankly, plainly ridiculous, unacceptable and wrong.
FRAN KELLY:
So you're sticking with the $200 million a year is what it will cost us to reach this?
GREG HUNT:
Yes.
FRAN KELLY:
And you've also said, I think you released …
GREG HUNT:
Let me make a point here. Governments make decisions and governments set programmes. The previous government, with great moral fanfare, created the Home Insulation program, the Green Loans program, they set us on a path for Cash for Clunkers, Citizens Assembly – all of which were failed or abandoned.
They put in place a carbon tax which they themselves said they would terminate. They firstly said they wouldn't bring it in, they then said they would terminate it. What we have done is put in place an Emissions Reduction Fund, which in just the first auction has achieved four times – four times the emissions reduction of the entire carbon tax experiment, at one per cent of the cost per tonne of abatement.
FRAN KELLY:
That's the first stage of the ERF, Minister, as you've said we need to have…
GREG HUNT:
And we've done it on exactly the budget we said we do…
FRAN KELLY:
Yes.
GREG HUNT:
… all of these same critics said you will need billions and billions. We budgeted exactly 2.5 billion, we always said we'd do that, and it's delivering more than any of the pundits had expected by a factor of ten. Then the next thing is, we've now extended that out, as I always said we would, to 2030, and we're budgeting $200 million a year for the 12 year period from 2018 to 2030.
FRAN KELLY:
Critical to that is the safeguard mechanisms, as I think you agree …
GREG HUNT:
Yes, absolutely.
FRAN KELLY:
… and you will be announcing those safeguard mechanisms, you're beyond your timetable, but you think we're going to have them by October. The CEO of AGL, Andrew Vesey, says that the penalty that is part of those safeguard mechanisms needs to be such as to encourage some coal-fired power plants to close down over time. Do you accept that, there has to be a shift that we are moving towards to closing down coal-fired power stations?
GREG HUNT:
Well we've actually seen a significant reduction in coal-fired power over the last half-decade, and there are consolidations within the industry, there are decisions which are being made. But our approach has been not to create a tax on electricity, we specifically…
FRAN KELLY:
But there will be a penalty, won't there?
GREG HUNT:
… and deliberately reduced – we specifically and deliberately reduced the cost of electricity in Australia because of the cost of living elements. We do not support a tax on electricity – the Labor Party does – as we saw from the modelling of their policy…
FRAN KELLY:
I'm not talking about a tax, I'm trying to get to the point of your safeguard mechanisms, Minister…
GREG HUNT:
It's a $600 billion, (inaudible) tax…
FRAN KELLY:
…will there be a penalty, what will that penalty be, and…
GREG HUNT:
We've always said…
FRAN KELLY:
…will it be enough to encourage the point of it…
GREG HUNT:
Now Fran…
FRAN KELLY:
… to encourage coal-fired power plants to close down?
GREG HUNT:
Now we've always said that the safeguards mechanism will come with an approach which would allow us to deal with rogue emitters. We are not seeking to raise a dollar of revenue. Our forward projections do not include revenue, we are not seeking to raise revenue, but there will be provision for dealing with rogue emitters.
FRAN KELLY:
Minister, can I just ask you finally on the other issue of the week, same-sex marriage. Scott Morrison, your colleague last night on 7:30 clearly favouring a referendum over a plebiscite that would lock in a definition of marriage for the long term. Do you have a view, a referendum or a plebiscite?
GREG HUNT:
Look, I am very committed to the notion of taking this to the people, of giving the Australian people, not just the politicians a vote. The form of it, I'm open to discussion on that. What I care about is that this is a unique situation where every Australian will be given a voice, where every Australian will have the chance to express their opinion, and that that will determine the outcome. And I think it will determine the outcome once and for all.
And so I think this is a great and important democratic step, where each Australian will have their voice. The form of it, I'm open to debate and discussion on that, but the fact of it is incredibly important, and I would hope that all Members of Parliament could support and would not deny giving the Australian people a vote. It's – if you would call it this – a national free vote for all Australians.
FRAN KELLY:
Greg Hunt, thank you very much for joining us.
GREG HUNT:
Thanks Fran.
FRAN KELLY:
Greg Hunt is the Federal Environment Minister.
(ENDS)